Harder To Kill Radio 259 How To Gain Autonomy In The War Against Diet Culture w/ Kim Gould

How To Gain Autonomy From Diet Culture w/ Kim Gould

Kim Gould is the creator of Autonomy Movement, a body-positive, size-inclusive and weight neutral fitness space which is on a mission to increase access to fitness for all. A former barre instructor and licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in eating disorders and body image issues, Kim has seen first hand the overlaps between body image, disordered eating, and movement.

Harder To Kill Radio 259 How To Gain Autonomy In The War Against Diet Culture w/ Kim Gould

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Honor Your Body’s Needs

Autonomy Movement is a space free from diet culture and exercise as punishment and combines the movement process with mental health self-care to improve your relationship with movement and your body. Kim wants you to feel good in your body, become okay with making mistakes and embrace your autonomy to do what you want when you want with your body.

An amazing, impactful and necessary space, Kim is here today to address weight stigma, intuitive eating and movement and help you honor your body’s needs instead of trying to fit into our society’s obsession with wellness culture.

 We live in a society where thinner is better, and Kim is determined to bust those myths and stop the false truths that you are being fed about your body. Are you ready to say goodbye to a pervasive diet culture and embrace your body at whatever stage you are at? Share what you find refreshing about Autonomy and Kim’s mission in the comment below.

On Today’s Episode

  • Understanding how diet culture influences you and your mental health (10:15)
  • Highlighting subtle ways that diet culture shows up in the wellness world (27:24)
  • Learn why the language you use around your body and diet is so impactful (28:50)
  • Addressing the rampant privilege and marginalization in the wellness space (32:15)
  • Ways that you can improve your relationship with movement and food (43:45)
  • How to become okay with being at your set point instead of altering yourself (49:10)

Resources Mentioned In This Show

Autonomy Movement

Follow Kim on Instagram 

Follow Autonomy Movement on Instagram | Facebook

Leave Steph a Voice Message Here

Join the Core 4 Facebook Club

Nutritional Therapy Association Website

Quotes

“The word that originally stood out to me as one of my favorite therapy words, like how do I develop my sense of self as a person and a professional, is what guided me to open Austin’s first size-inclusive body-positive fitness studio.” (13:43)

“If I were just any old gym, and I didn’t know what I knew about how destructive yo-yo dieting and compulsive exercising is to the body, it would be really great to just sort of blast everywhere I went. But with Autonomy what I think is really hard and really important is that every time I am marketing Autonomy I am having to clearly explain our values.” (24:10)

 “There is still another way to be living that is infinitely more compassionate. How much more does your world open up and expand when you give yourself permission to eat and more and exist in a way that actually is really intuitive to the body?” (37:32)

“There is nobody that is better than the next. Our bodies are the least interesting thing about us, especially because they are so dynamic, they are always going to keep changing.” (42:55)

“I believe in body diversity 110%… and there is no such thing as a body that has more worth than another.” (48:00)

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How To Gain Autonomy In The War Against Diet Culture w/ Kim Gould FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steph
Welcome to episode 259 of harder to kill radio. On today’s show, I’m welcoming Kim Gould of the autonomy movement. She’s talking about why body positive size, inclusive and weight neutral fitness facilities are so important in increasing the access of fitness for all. All right, let’s do this. I’m Steph Gaudreau. I help women get stronger, know their worth, and take up space without restrictive dieting or exercise as punishment. I’m here to share that you can approach nutrition, fitness, and mindset from a place of nourishment so you begin to trust yourself more deeply. Let’s talk about how to embrace your body and own your power. Now with over two and a half million downloads, this is harder to kill radio.

Steph
Hey there, welcome back to harder to kill radio. Thank you so much for joining me on today’s show. I’m so grateful that I get the opportunity to spend some time with you every week and to bring you my guests to bring you some perhaps new and different perspectives and to be able to share that stuff with you so that you can apply it to your life to ultimately embrace your body, own your power, and make a difference in your own world. Today I’m welcoming to the show Kim Gould of autonomy movement. Kim is the owner of an inclusive fitness studio in Austin, Texas and her goal is to provide a holistic space for individuals to explore and restore their relationships with their body movement and what makes up personal definitions of health, really to make a space that’s free from diet, culture and exercise as punishment. And I’m so very grateful not only for the work that Kim is doing but for her willingness to come on the show and explain what that means and hopefully open your mind to new possibilities.

Steph
Now, before we pop into the show, I wanted to make sure I mentioned to join the core four club. This is my online community. This is where we are having discussions, you know, as sort of those show after the show type deal where you get to sit down and talk about what was going on. Well, this is one of the things that happen in my core four communities where there’s further discussion about the podcast, the topics and how people are integrating this information. So I really would love for you to join because it is the week of Thanksgiving and it is the week of Black Friday and I’m going to be doing something very special just for my online community. I can’t let the cat out of the bag quite yet, but if you want to get in on it, join the community. There are a couple of questions that I ask

Steph
just to make sure that we have the right folks who are, who are joining us and you understand what the mission and the purpose of our group is. But I would love to invite you to join so that you can get in on that sort of goodies before the goodies come out. So to do that, just head over to Facebook and look for a core four club or you can go ahead and look in the show notes and click on the link there. And before we jump into today’s content, today’s show is brought to you by the nutritional therapy association, the NTA trains and certifies nutritional therapy practitioners like myself. I did the program in 2018 and it was one of the best things that I have ever done for myself professionally. In the realm of nutrition, the NTA emphasizes whole food, properly prepared nutrient dense frameworks as the key to restoring balance in the body.

Steph
They’ve just launched a brand new online program for NTPs where students take an in-depth look at things like function and dysfunction of body systems, food quality, health and wellness barriers, emotional wellbeing environment, the importance of sleep and movement and stress. And you know, we love all those topics here and how they affect the body. As a student, you’ll be empowered with motivational interviewing techniques, clinical and practical skills, and all the most up to date knowledge to become a highly recognized and respected nutrition and wellness professionals. In your community. Registration is now open and seats are filling up quickly. You can learn more and save your seat by going to nutritional therapy.com and of course, remember to mention my name on your application.

Steph
Welcome back to harder to kill radio. So thankful that you’re joining with joining me today and you’re with me on this Tuesday show. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation with my guest today, Kim gold. She’s from autonomy movements and we’re going to be talking today about this wonderful thing that she’s creating in her city of Austin, Texas. And just some of the reasons why space and the vision that she has in mind for movement is so different and so needed. And I’m just really excited to get into this. So Kim, welcome so much to the show.

Kim
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you taking the time and I’m so grateful that I get to share this, but I get to talk to a fellow anti dieter.

Steph
Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s, um, it’s always really interesting to me how I get introduced to people and there are certain people in my life when they, people that I know that when they come to me and they say, Hey, I have this person in mind for your podcast and I really think that you two would be a great match.

Steph
There are certain people who I really, my ears really perk up when they say this because I really respect what they do and I know that they have the work they’re doing in the world is really important. And so Chrissy King, who’s been on this show introduced us virtually and Chrissy said, Hey, you know, I think he would love to talk to Kim about what she’s doing and I just couldn’t wait to hear more. And then we did talk off air for quite quite a bit recently and, and you know, make sure that we were all on the same page and we’re just resonating. But yeah, so glad that that connection was made and well, the work you’re doing is really, really important. And as someone in this space, as an entrepreneur, as somebody who’s trying to figure out where I am in terms of what I do and who I want to work with, I really respect what you’re doing. And I think it’s super important and, uh, takes a lot of courage.

Kim
It, yeah, it certainly does. Mmm. And I think over and over again, people have had to sort of remind me like, it’s, it’s okay and you should be making mistakes. It’s okay to have that idea not work out. And what I tell clients that I have to remind myself constantly is like, that’s how we learn best. And sometimes we make a mistake and we get lucky and don’t realize that it was one or you know, we emerge unscathed. And other times, you know, and we talked about this too, like we make these decisions that we end up leaving feeling not so good. And that’s just a learning experience. It’s feedback and having to integrate that just creates more resilience. But it’s certainly not for the faint of heart, I think. Entrepreneur.

Steph
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so in Austin, yeah, you’re creating this very unique space for people. And I’m wondering if you can just, I think this will help frame the conversation and we can take it on some side tangents and go in some different directions, but tell us about autonomy movement, your, your facility and what makes it different than a gym that you might walk into, you know, uh, 24 hour gym or whatever it is, you know, a big box gym or a CrossFit gym or you know, how, how does your, what is your vision and how are you structuring that in a way that’s different from other spaces?

Kim
Sure.

Kim
That’s like

Kim
you asked for no side tangents and I’m trying to already in my mind be like scooping up together. Like how I explained this and I think that probably starts with explaining a little bit about my background. So I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, so I specialize in treating eating disorders and body image issues. But that’s so much less about like who I see. So I don’t just see like couples or anything. I can see individuals, families, groups. I’ve worked at treatment centers, um, psych hospitals. Um, and so all my, you know, in the mental health world have been really helpful in getting like a full look at a person and like all their different systems, like their family system, family of origin relationships. And then while simultaneously getting all of that experience, um, I was also, I began working at a bar studio in Austin and that’s sort of where, you know, I’ve always been really passionate about movements.

Kim
Um, you know, I was like a Zoomba instructor in high school for a minute and I’ve always loved going to exercise classes. I remember growing up like my thing was I want to be a personal trainer when I grow up and you know, I went to school for psychology. My parents were like, what are you doing? You know, I w I’ve had this like passion and love for movement while simultaneously getting all these different experiences in the mental health world. [inaudible] being in the eating disorder community in Austin has been one of the best experiences for me because I’m saturated in this like system of the most like compassionate, educated professionals. And they, I’ve been so instrumental in like helping me understand and like to detangle myself from like what diet culture is, how it influences us, the way that it sort of crept its, you know, sign little tentacles into all the different areas of like R S our personhood.

Kim
And you know, a big part of that for me was movement. And so when I started working the bar studio, it was like a great way for me to make a lot of friends and to have this sort of, this fun side hustle. But I was finding, you know, as I, I eventually got trained as a bar instructor and then I got my personal training certification through NASAM that there was a lot of overlap that was overlooked and in eating sort of treatment centers, it was taboo to talk about exercise that wasn’t, you know, a gentle walk at its slowest and you know, mindful meditation or restorative yoga like anything else was sort of looked at and sort of been like, why are you encouraging now? Like you’re doing more harm. [inaudible] what I began realizing and like doing my own research with all this is actually not talking about exercise is infinitely more harm.

Kim
And so, you know, I remember asking my supervisor when I was still getting clinical hours, am I allowed to tell people I’m a bar instructor? You know? And it was sort of looked at as if you were in the fitness field. They’re like, there are not a lot of counselors that are therapists that are dieticians in this field that are, and so it felt like I was almost doing something shameful or wrong. And I remember him saying to me, you know, you make your best judgment. Like there’s some people believe that you should never, you know, do the exercise again that gave you disordered thoughts. There’s some people that say it’s okay and in doing the work that I’ve done have come to realize like, Oh my God, like everyone should be talking about exercise. Not necessarily pushing people back into it, but acknowledging the benefits in addition to like how things got so out of control maybe.

Kim
And so all of that, that was not very concise. Oh no, it’s no, it’s fine. We have plenty of time. So this is all wonderful. I’ll take my first breath, all of that to say, you know, in working at the bar studio and in private practice, I was just like [inaudible] I w I don’t have anywhere to send my clients where they can do this work, do it thoroughly, do it safely. And I’m one of those people, if you want something done right, you do it yourself. And I was sort of sick, sick of asking you for permission and was like, you know, I need to develop my own autonomy as um, and this is like in the movies when you’re like, ah, like the names of movies in the movie. So I said to myself like, I need to develop my own autonomy as a therapist, as a personal trainer, as a bar instructor, fitness professional to sort of figure out like what my role is in all of this and ultimately, you know, have this like snowball evolution of this idea for combining movement and movement process that, you know, just grew and grew and grew.

Kim
And the more I talked about it, you know, Bernay Brown would be proud. I like sharing my vulnerability with people on my like fledgling ideas. The more people their ears perked up and they were like, Oh my gosh, that’s really cool. We definitely need something like that. And so long story medium we ended up um, autonomy where you know, the, the word that originally to me sort of stood out as my favorite therapy words and like how do I develop my sense of self as a person in a professional is what guided me to open Austin’s first size-inclusive body-positive fitness studio. And not to say that there aren’t studios in Austin that offer some similar things, right? Like there’s yoga studios that don’t have mirrors. There’s some instructors at the different studios that teach in a really like weight-neutral way, but there is not one place where you look at it and you knew that place is going to do no or at least the, the very minimal amount of harm that could be done.

Kim
Because you know, I wanted, well my instructors are trained in a health at every size, weight-neutral perspective. They have to take a mandatory body diversity training. Um, I own the building so no one’s ever going to sell it out from under us and people are going to just like lose the community that they build here. Like, that feels really important to me. Um, we have weekly group classes or we’re going to, when we officially open, which just waiting on the city of Austin to give us the green light on that, you know, we’re going to have personal training one on one sessions and then still offer fusions, which are, you know, the idea that originally sparked autonomy is the combination of movement, therapeutic process led by a master’s level clinician in mental health. We’re also going to have intuitive eating groups starting in

Kim
the winter. Um, do you know what you’re talking about having all these really good ideas and just how do to decide? Like is that, is that right? Or is it just not right now? Some of these are like, I’m raring to go. We’re starting to miss students. I get that green light and some of them were pushing back a little bit. Mmm. But yeah, so that’s sort of all led to me just deciding like it had to be done and then letting it grow from there.

Steph
So wonderful. I really applaud everything that you’re doing. And I love your, and appreciate your transparency and your vulnerability. And yes, admitting that sometimes you don’t know or you have to make those mistakes or you have to, you are so excited that you realize and you realize you can’t do it all, all at once. And so trying to figure out what goes first and then going from there.

Steph
I think what is really interesting and I think my typical podcast listener, this is not going to be a surprise because we’ve had lots of guests who are presenting wider perspectives on fitness and nutrition than just your typical, um, you know, sort of rooted in diet culture approaches. And really I’ve been moving that way with my own practice and the things that I’m teaching. But I think it’s still kind of surprising to people who are not for people for whom this isn’t an issue that can feel like they can walk into a regular gym and they see the scale over in the corner or they [inaudible] are doing their lifts in front of mirrors and they’re like not a problem for me. Um, and then when somebody close to them or somebody they know or they hear a show like this, they’re like, well that can, that can be possible.

Steph
I mean, ah, it’s very, you know, these, these things are very neutral for me. Or I don’t have a problem with [inaudible] a gym that has scale or mirrors and scales or I don’t have a problem with, you know, this, my gym is running weight loss challenges. Like, and so I think sometimes the, the rub is that if folks are sort of like, well this is it, this is the thing, this is a problem. Why do we need spaces like this? And I’m wondering if you can tease apart some of that for us. You know, what.

Kim
I would absolutely love to, and I think you’re such a great person to be talking [inaudible] about this because this is a conversation that, you know, off air in our first phone call, we both got really heated about this. Like the privilege that comes along with not recognizing those things. Being able to walk into any studio and know, yeah, okay, I might struggle in this class, but you know, I’ll be fine. I’ll leave feeling okay and people aren’t going to stare at me and be like, Oh, it’s because they look this way, or Oh, it’s because they’re probably lazy. Um, and there’s privilege with having a certain body size, a certain skin color, uh, able-bodied MIS that like privilege is sort of the absence of having to think about

Kim
the way you move in the world because it’s not constantly being pointed out to you either directly or indirectly with like look, like disapproving looks or judgmental looks or surprised looks. Um,

Kim
and so, uh, you know, for anyone that’s seen a picture of me, um, and for those who haven’t, I’m a cisgendered heterosexual Caucasian woman with thin privilege. And that doesn’t always mean that I feel thin, but it’s also not up to me to say whether or not I am because I can walk into a store in front of my size, I can get on an airplane and not request a seatbelt extender. And so, you know, the fact that I’m able to do autonomy is so much in part to privilege, you know, financial privilege, probably racial privilege and um, thin privilege. So yeah, I, I want to be a voice for people that creates space for folks that like otherwise would not feel as if they were given one. And I wanted to create a space where, you know, after I would say I’m on like the, the proficient end of being able to take feedback.

Kim
Um, I prefer when it’s done, you know, respectfully and understand that if I hit a nerve it might not always be so respectfully and it’s not my a job or yeah, it’s not my job to sorta like tell someone how to manage their own stuff if I hit a nerve for them, if, if something that I’ve said has been disrespectful. So, you know, I think I’ve done my very best to sort of open up to the, like a ton of different communities in Austin and be like, you know, teach me and tell me how to do this well, and I’m gonna continue to do that. But I definitely think for folks that like myself can walk into a studio and I get mad now and I see obviously mirrors and scales because of what I do and I know how much harm it can cause. Um, and how in so many different ways that does exclude people, um, indirectly, right? It’s like only carrying a certain amount of sizes in your studio. It’s like another way to say, Hey, like anyone who does not fit into these sizes is not necessarily welcome here. Even if you say that studios for all bodies. Um, and that you’re very inclusive. So yeah, I sort of lost myself there, but I think essentially we were talking about his privilege not have to think about those things.

Steph
[inaudible] Yeah, absolutely. And I know that there again, kind of unpacking the conversation for people who may maybe haven’t thought about it in this way. I mean, I think that there is, one of the other things that I hear a lot is, well, um, you know, autonomy is getting to choose what you want to do with your body, right? And we want to honor that. We want to give people the space to make those decisions for themselves. And then there are also those of us in the, in the community or in respective communities that are related who very clearly say like you all are doing with autonomy. We take an anti-diet approach, we don’t do weight loss challenges, we prioritize, Mmm. You know, that our instructors are trauma-informed and that we know what intuitive eating is and all this stuff. So you’re very clear about what you do and what you don’t do.

Steph
And I’m wondering maybe as a, from a business perspective or even from a personal level as doing what you’re doing, how you rectify those two things. And I will admit that this question is very selfish. I would love to know the answer, from your perspective because this is something I struggle with as well, right? We want to, we want to honor people’s autonomy to choose whatever’s right for them. But at the same time, we’re like, this isn’t what we do here. We do this. I wonder if you have any, any thoughts on that?

Kim
I think I’m just a little confused specifically what the question is.

Steph
Oh, okay. So the question is how do you, from a sort of a business perspective, somebody out in the world, how do you hold fast to the things that are really true for you and your values while also holding space for people to do things that you maybe don’t agree with. Um, you know, doing weight loss challenges because we, you know, honor that person’s autonomy to choose what’s right for them.

Kim
Yeah. Mmm. You know, I don’t, I lead in my opinion, I’m always trying to lean like with my values and some of that is, like

Kim
A lot of it is sort of like self-care where I know that for me it’s not really effective to like end certain relationships completely or give a ton of my energy. And we had talked about this to folks that just like are not going to want to even hear what I have to say and like being able to discern the difference. You know, in marketing it’s like a really fine line between like, yeah, I want to go to this like networking event and talk all about autonomy and at the same time this network could, and this networking event is sort of labeled as like a general quilt wellness or like mental health and wellness events. So on one hand like, you know, it could have some people from my target market. On the other hand, the wellness industry has been so hijacked by diet culture that I could just be walking into like [inaudible]

Kim
um, a shit storm of people

Kim
talking about macros and having to like lose weight and counting calories and how being in a fat body is bad or how, you know, eating this or eating that is like not good for you. [inaudible] so it’s been like really challenging I think because you know, if I were, again, it’s sort of like that privilege. Like if I were just any old gym

Kim
and I didn’t know what I knew

Kim
about how destructive yo yo dieting and compulsive exercising a is to the body. Like yeah, it’d be really great to just sort of like blast everywhere I went like opening this gym, opening this gym, like come here. But with autonomy I think what’s, Oh like really hard but also super important is like every time I’m marketing autonomy I’m having to really clearly explain our values and I’m having to again meet people where they’re at. I have clients that want to come that are still sort of telling me, Oh I weigh X amount but I lost this much and I’m wanting to just like be in a space where I can feel good about my body. But their language is still diet centered. So I mean it’s like having to sit in that gray of Ooh, that is grating to my mind, body, soul, and ears to hear diet talk still.

Kim
But like not everyone is there and it’s going to be an evolution. I’m and I have to be okay with like dropping the rope a lot and just recognizing like, yeah, I’m probably not going to get to market to this audience because that person is still really deeply entrenched in diet culture and you know, maybe wouldn’t feel comfortable here. So I almost think like as you were talking originally what sorta came to the mind that got me a little fiery was like that some like the marginalized community is sometimes are just like asking to be like seen and respected. Like Hey, I’m here, you know I’m going to do my own thing. But like you know, you do you, and I’m thinking of even like some podcasts that I’ve listened to like experiences of people in like plus-sized bodies is like, yeah I just want like baseline respect and it’s not be looked at like you know, all of my health behaviors just by looking at me, which you know, he’s in front perspective says you never know someone’s health behaviors just by looking at them.

Kim
You have this like really intense diet community that is sort of like incensed just by looking at someone in a plus size body and saying like, no, like that sick your, you know, just drawing our like health culture and like you need to change and what you’re doing is bad. Um, so the stance that I take, again, it’s really going back to this like, yeah, you can feel really intensely about whatever you feel intensely about and we’re going to be over here doing our very best to help people genuinely learn how to feel good in their bodies, free from all of these critical thoughts and pressure. Our tagline is, you know, just learning how to like move in a way that feels good to your body, who’s like you. [inaudible].

Steph
thank you for that. I really appreciate you unpacking that. And all the things that you said that gives me personally things to think about, but also people in this, I feel like there are other professionals in this space who are also wrestling with the same things is this idea that they’ve, they’ve learned information that they can no longer,

Steph
Oh they can’t unlearn it now. They write, they know the effect, they know the impact. And,

Steph
and yet

Steph
it’s like a, we’re still kind of stuck in this, in this space. And I was wondering if one of the things that you might do for us, I think we all know and you can probably think back to the old slim fast commercials and you know, it was like a shake for breakfast to shake for lunch, lunch and a sensible dinner and everybody knows that tag vine. And so it’s really sort of easy to spot those overt things as being diet, culture. [inaudible] but I’m wondering if you can, and you mentioned this very briefly in your answer when you were talking, you said, you know, the sort of subtle ways in which diet culture shows up in the wellness world. And I’m wondering if you can give maybe give some examples or sort of explain what you mean. Cause I think there will be a lot of people who sort of are like, but yeah, I’m, I don’t, you know, I know just eat a liquid diet or I’m not trying to get below a thousand calories a day or whatever it is that they’re doing. So they’re like, that’s not diet culture, but we know it shows up in more subtle ways.

Kim
Absolutely. Yeah. I know like how many ways, like let me just count them, have enough time. Um, but yeah, and I’m even just like sort of trying to gather my thoughts. It’s so sweet that you said, I briefly mentioned because I feel like nothing about what I’ve said is free when you get me started on a topic. I’m very passionate about it. I’ll keep going. Um, so let’s say, okay, for example, and, and I will preface this by saying my intention is always to share information and is not to change the way that anyone thinks. And so if you’re listening to this and getting like heated, who sort of seem like humans judging me and she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, it doesn’t have to be for you, but I also encourage you to like be really suspicious and curious about not just what I’m saying, but the messages that you’ve agreed to and like sort of bought into throughout the years because I mean it started obviously from a really young age for all of us.

Kim
Like, you know, candy and sweets and anything that tastes too good is bad. And then, you know, the veggies, the fruits, the lean proteins, the whatever, um, whole grains that is good. And so I’ll say it starts at language. The way that we talk about things influences the relationship that we have with them. So when I talk to people who are like, yo, I know that when I eat gluten or when I eat dairy, like I just blow up. Like I don’t feel good. My digestion is all off. And what I have to do is sort of gently challenge. Yeah. Okay. You could have an intolerance to that thing. I don’t know. You’re the expert on your own body. And what is your relationship like with that food? How have you been taught to interact with it? Because if you’re using words like bad or guilty or cheat meal, which is so common in the wellness world, right?

Kim
Like Ooh, cheat meal, um, use then assign some type of moral value to whatever it is. And when you assign moral value to something and then you put it into your body or you know, live in line with it, um, however you want to say it, you know, you aren’t then it consuming something that has is quote bad, guilty cheating and none of those things, you know, necessarily have a great connotation. And when that happens, your nervous system just physiologically has a response. So it goes into potential like fight or flight, a stress response for your smart brain. Your frontal lobe turns off, your may delay, your primal brain turns on and when your may, Dilla is, is active and only has three responses which are fight, flight or freeze, and then the body goes into survival mode, which means it doesn’t need a libido.

Kim
It doesn’t need to like exercise properly. You’ve got very poor emotional regulation. You’re irritable, you might snap at people and then it slows down your digestive functions so that yeah, you might blow, you might have a stomach ache when you eat that thing, but not because you have an intolerance to it because your relationship with that thing is so poor. So potentially when you start, you know, actively exploring the relationship you have with different foods, drinks, um, you know, people, you will feel differently because your body is not going into a stress response when you eat it. So, you know, a nice simple way of saying the language that we use is really important. So I never say good or bad cheat meal. Guilty. I say nutritious or recreational because both are pretty neutral. I would say I’m like a recreational bag of Cheetos. It can be very fun and like, yeah, I’m, I’m not of the mindset that like all food is 100% created equal and its nutritional value and we don’t have to also play so much judgment and labels on these things because, you know, I went to a panel a few weeks ago with a whole host of um, Caucasian cis-gendered.

Kim
I am potentially making an assumption but I think for the most part just gender, heterosexual, um, you know, thin-bodied, um, presenters and there’s a dietician on, on the stage and they didn’t offer a, um, question time or else you’re not partly grateful for that. I think my, uh, emotions were very dysregulated by the end of this, but you know, she called, um, food like a chemical shit storm. And I was enraged because I’m thinking like you are talking to a panel of people in downtown Austin, central Austin who, and again, I don’t want to make like a full-blown assumption, but I would say the majority are Caucasian. When I looked around the room, Caucasian and thin-bodied, and you had to pay to be at this event. So you’re talking about a room full of people with a lot of privilege. There’s a lot of people that don’t have that privilege.

Kim
So when you’re making these horrible generalizations about food and calling it that you’re like continuing to marginalize culture is that maybe that like, you know, white rice or something as part of their diet and when you’re demonizing certain foods, you are then like placing judgment on that culture. And so, you know, there’s all that too. Um, I hear people saying like, Oh yeah, I have to go to the gym for two hours. No one has to go to the gym for two hours. Unless like you’re bringing, you know, some tea with you and you’re going to sit and you’re gonna have a conversation with friends, your body doesn’t need to move intensely for two hours. Um, people can disagree with me. That’s fine. Um, to each their own. I would say, you know, there’s a plateau on the amount of energy our body uses anyways.

Kim
And so just because you work out longer doesn’t mean your body is going to look any different. And in fact, research shows that exercise is not significantly, um, indicative of like weight loss. And so people, you know, might argue, Oh well now I started moving and I lost weight. Well, okay, sure. Maybe you have a set point which is sort of like our body’s thermostat that just naturally is a little bit lower and you weren’t moving as much. So when you did start moving, your body was like, Ooh, this is what I’ve been waiting for. My set point is different and yeah, you might lose some way. So anyways, I could keep going. But yeah, you know, the food, the movements, there are so many like one-offs that I hear like, Oh, empty calories, there’s no such thing. Like it’s all calories, a unit of energy. It’s not like a bubble floating into your body.

Steph
Yeah, absolutely. I really appreciate those examples and many of them have shown up before on the show, but some of them haven’t. And you know, I think the first time I talked about why the term like cheat day or cheat meal is the problem. A lot of people sort of, we’re like, uh, what like cause it’s so common, it’s, it’s such a common way of couching, you know, like being good throughout the week. And then it’s like we get to do whatever we want. But then that also feeds into, for some people loss of control eating or binge eating or whatever you call it and [inaudible] then the shame and the guilt and all of those things in it starts all over again on Monday. And so I think it’s important, like you said, to question these things, to think about why we say the things we do, why we go about approaching movement and food the way we do. And I say this all the time and I think people think I’m crazy, but you know, the, the common refrain [inaudible]

Steph
eat less, move more. And

Steph
[inaudible] I’m telling you, I know you’ve had the same experience where there are so many people for whom they then take that to the extreme. And you know, not to beat, not in a judgmental way, but just saying that as the result is like, okay well I’m doing all of this exercise and I’m, I’m more tired or it’s not working or whatever and so I probably should do more. And, and so it’s not always as simple as that, that cute little way of saying, Oh, how do we improve our health? We eat less than move more because we know that there are so many people on the flip side of that coin, you know? And so I really appreciate you walking through some of those examples so people can get a sense of the more subtle ways in which it presents itself.

Kim
Sure. Yeah. I mean it’s my pleasure and

Kim
Oh like when I hear things like that, it’s again, it’s grating to my soul. I it like makes me angry cause I’m like, who, first of all, who is saying this? Um, and also what is the intention? I was about to like, okay, we can say these like one-off catchphrases for diet culture. But do you know what you’re actually saying? Like who originally thought of this. Um, because yeah, for some people if they’re not eating intuitively and moving intuitively, that could be good advice. And it sort of led to this obsession with

Kim
I, you know, wellness culture,

Kim
we’re all looking to be unique and different special in whatever way. And a lot of us like cleaning to wellness culture because it sort of gives us just like moral superiority. Like it makes me better to eat quote, eat clean and to go to the gym and, and then it comes with this really dark side that people don’t often talk about or have sort of learned to glorify and know again, like it’s not meant to be shaming or blaming. Like if there is someone who like identifies with this,

Kim
I’m not trying to tell anyone how to live their life.

Kim
Yeah. There’s still like another way to be living in is infinitely more compassionate. And how much more does your world open up and expand when you give yourself permission to eat and move and exist in a way that actually like it’s really intuitive to the body. You’re not using external cues like counting calories, macros and all of that to regulate your own emotional system to feel good enough.

Steph
[inaudible] so I would love to explore maybe, you know, when you’re working with people, um, or you’re setting up these experiences for them, what are some of the ways that you present movement especially? Um, and I know that you all do some nutrition stuff as well, but I think the movement part is a little bit harder for people to grasp sometimes because they do see it as a transactional thing, right? I need to burn X many calories because I eat this many calories and whatnot. I mean, what are some of the ways that you help people really redefine the relationship that they could have with movement? In other words, what are some of the things that you’re trying to get people to connect with? Well, with movement?

Kim
Yeah. Mmm, that’s a really good question.

Kim
Yeah, I would say, you know, super helpful. It depends. Um, a lot of what I do and I have the time is helping people to understand what exercise is not useful for before I go. Like filling in the blanks of what it is useful for because I think that not useful tends to get in the way of, you know, creating space for what else it is good for. And it might like Dileep that. So I’ve got like my top list of like exercise myths and you know, you said one of them like calories in, calories out. Um, you know, there’s no pain, no gain. You can burn off calories, you can pre-born calories. Um, and so I just sort of go through sometimes one by one and help people understand like, yeah, these are actually just myths that were fed to us. Like, here is actual research, you know, the no pain, no gain mentality.

Kim
Yeah. It might make you feel like a boss for a hot minute, but then you’re going home and you’ve injured yourself. Um, if you feel pain, you should stop moving. You should stretch. You should give yourself a pause and like, sure, your muscles might feel really good when they burn, but that burns shouldn’t be extended because your muscles are likely tearing and they need, you know, time to repair. No rest days. No days off. That’s terrifying to me because again, our muscles need to rest. The body does require rest. You know, if we’re going constantly, it probably means we’re not listening. We’re not cuing in and saying like, do I need to like take it a little bit easier today because diet culture and that eating disorder part will potentially tell you like absolutely not. That means you have lower worth as a human being and you’re going to be gross and lazy and all the things that people think about you.

Kim
And that part is, you know, protective. I never tried to like kick it out, but Mmm. Offering like information that clients get to disbelieve at first but then potentially over time say like, okay that I might want that to make more sense to me. Mmm. You cannot really pre-born calories. Now I hear so many times in fitness classes or historically, cause I haven’t gone to a lot of other ones recently, but you know, historically it would drive me insane when I would go to a workout class and someone would say, you know, get those tank top arms, earn those. Momo says, you know, do that extra pushups you can have brunch later, but you know what you’re talking about because first of all, exercise does not burn a significant amount of energy to leave, like too much of the deficit. So then you’re sort of teaching people along with that and correct information that they have to quote, earn food.

Kim
So they’re developing not only a disordered relationship with food but also exercise and they’re using it as punishment or to like earn something. I’m sort of like classical conditioning gone awry and then do you know when that person goes to eat, they’re probably going to end up consuming more energy because they sort of felt like, Ooh, I earned it. You know, I like, I’m allowed to have more. And then typically, uh, I’ll kind of just wrap up by saying for that one, when we do our bodies, we do exercise and we’re sort of a to us that you can pre-born energy. Then we compensate the rest of the day. Like we ended up parking closer to the grocery store entrance. Like, Ooh, I worked out today. Or like we ended up taking the elevator and some of the stairs. So then the exercise actually works against us if we have that belief.

Kim
And then in thinking about posts, burning calories, sort of like the same deal, like I have, you know, history of listening to clients sort of say, Oh well I was on vacation so I need to do a two a day to day. Again, energy has a plateau, your body is going to your metabolism when it feels like you’ve used enough energy is going to blame. I don’t think so. And it’s going to hold onto more your metabolism. That action is slowed down if you’re over-exercising um, cause your body thinks you’re in survival mode. And then again, I will say it for like the millions time, but exercise does not have a significant effect on weight loss unless your set point is to, is on average lower than where you started. And your body might look a little bit different with like muscle mass and all of that.

Kim
And that’s the do want neutrality is like there was nobody that is better than the, than the next. You know, [inaudible] our bodies are sort of like the least interesting thing about us especially cause they’re so dynamic, they’re always going to keep changing.

Steph
Right? Yeah. It’s so I have a lot, there are a lot of people listening to this show or in the community who, you know, they’re like, okay, I’m finally finding a really great relationship with movement, like queuing into my body more. I’m exercising or moving for the mental health benefit I get or the connection that I get to be outside in nature or being out with my family or my dog or whatever it is. And then there’s oftentimes a but [inaudible]. Okay. Uh, but I haven’t lost much weight or haven’t lost any weight or, but the scale has gone up and that’s such a sticking point for so many people.

Kim
Um, you know, what are some of the other things that you encourage people to tune into once they sort of get those myths busted? You know, what are some of the ways that you encourage people to, yeah. Or some of the things you encourage them to listen to or look for, feel for. It’s like, Hey, this relationship with movement is improving. [inaudible].

Kim
yeah, so if weight is a sticking point, typically I’m, I’m really curious about that and helping them be curious about that. Like all right, what is so important to wait? Like what is wait to re in your mind like what is your brain telling you? That weight is directly correlated with them. For a lot of people at self-worth like, well you know I felt better when I was center or I got more compliments or more dates or sometimes people are just like, I don’t know.

Kim
I just like being thinner better. Right? It would make my life better. And then taking deep dive a lot of times, and especially for people who use fat as a feeling, right, like saying, Oh I feel so fat. It’s like, Hey, you don’t feel fat cause that that’s not an actual emotion. Like what are you really feeling? We get down to the self-worth piece, which is well art, we do admittedly and unfortunately live in a society where thinner is better. We’re told that from a really young age, you know, fatphobia is rampant in the medical fields when we go to the doctor, if we’ve gained weight, um, a lot of times, and also signing up for people that don’t, I already know this, you never half get weighed at the doctor. You can always refuse to scale. Um, and so it’s like kind of useless and people are like, Oh, well my BMI, like my doctor said that my BMI is like off.

Kim
Okay, well BMI makes no sense. It’s not actually a legitimate tool for judging someone’s wellness. Um, because you’re looking at height and weight and everyone has variability. So when I try to help people understand is like what is related to weight. Because if you’re just moving for weight loss, chances are you may move, no pun intended, it goes back into abusing it because you think it’s gonna help or change your body and then get frustrated and burnt out. And so you know, and working on the self-worth piece, I try to then offer, okay well here are actually some things that movement’s really amazing for. If you join this like gym or, or fitness studio, you might be able to build a really supportive community. You might be able to make friends like I made, you know, plenty of friends teaching at my old fitness studio that was really wonderful.

Kim
It increases libido, it improves memory. So if you have these really great experiences, guess what? You get to remember them even better than you would if you weren’t moving. So it gets you out and about improves maybe like the quality of life and assists in a systems-based way, like your community and like growing support and feeling seen. And then also physiologically, uh, also exercise release endorphins. So mentally you’re going to feel a better sort of like that. Endorphins make you happy.

Steph
I think that’s all really great. I love those examples as things that people can start, you’re kind of putting out a mental, not a checklist. So, so to say is like, Oh, I need all these things. If I’m going to be cool within my relationship with it, but just other ways to think about an experience and kind of commune with movement in their lives to to find a much more peaceful relationship with it.

Kim
And I, I will say like, I think what’s hard is that I am in a, in a stereotypical fan body with um, I have thin privilege, I have racial privilege. And so there may be people who look at me and say like, well how would you possibly know or like I, I’m not to listen to you because you don’t know what it’s like to move in the world in a way that is like incredibly marginalized and people maybe don’t look at you and automatically think like, you know, you’re lazy or what have you. And to that I see like they’re 100% right and like keep being curious because I believe in body diversity 110% a hundred percent for those that don’t believe in 110 and there is no such thing as a body that has more worth than another and there is literally such a thing as set point where some of you know society can be naturally thin just like other people are naturally fat or in a plus-size body or just naturally curvy and that’s where our bodies function optimally.

Kim
So if you know you’re someone that’s been struggling with weight your whole life, gone on yo-yo diets and you’re sort of back at square one and your body is not going any smaller, it might be time to sort of look at that and say like is it my body or is it sort of what I’ve been fed about my body? These false truths that like there is a different size body like underneath all of this because yeah, I would say most people on average have failed many diets and 95% of diets actually result in um, weight gain because our metabolism slows down. We ended up like engaging this Finch, uh, and restrict cycle. We had poor relationships with food and our body ultimately just wants to be back at its set point, which goes up when we, you know, your diet. So, um, yeah, research shows that dining actually causes yo yo dieting specifically causes internal inflammation, which is an instantly more damaging than just like being at yourself point, whatever that is.

Steph
Absolutely. I’ve seen the, the reverse happened as well just coming from the weightlifting world and people who are trying to increase their mass will, you know, they’ll really over, they’ll taking a lot more energy than they need and the scale may go up for a period of time if that’s what they’re aiming for. But then when they resume normal, Oh, I’m using that in air quotes have heavily but normal eating. Mmm. Instead of overfeeding their body goes back to [inaudible] essentially the weight that it was at before they started the mass game. Right. So that’s just sort of like an opposite example and [inaudible] probably as a society wouldn’t look at those people and think like, Oh, what’s wrong with you? Or you know, let me say something that you’re just not doing right. But that’s just us. That’s that point.

Kim
Yeah. I was going to say that kind of goes back to like one of your earliest questions, um, which was like, what are some of those ways that diet culture is pervasive that you pervasive yet insidious that you maybe wouldn’t know and

Kim
you don’t have to maybe have a full-blown eating disorder to be struggling with body image, distorted thoughts, disordered eating, but it’s been normalized by our quote. I’m using my air quotes now, like wellness culture. So, you know, you have people that are maybe engaging in like orthorexia, which is like an obsession with healthful eating that can’t have, you know, the usual suspects. I suppose that like in shape magazine now demonizes which is like bread, gluten, sugar, dairy, all of that. Because it’s, you know, air quotes not good for you. And yet if they do eat that thing, it’s like they lose control of their emotions. Like everything’s kinda gone to shit. That’s orthorexia. So there’s not, other than intuitive eating and like listening to your body and people ask me, and I’m sure you get really similar questions, like, well, what about this diet?

Kim
What about this? I can’t count. Right. That’s not diet culture. Now anything that is not intuitive, that’s not listening to the body, that is a behavior that is some way altering. Um, maybe like a standard form of eating like is a diet [inaudible].

Steph
yeah, it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard to see that and tease that apart for a lot of people. You know, diet cultures really so wide and so deep in terms of how it affects everything. And I’m, I’m still, no, I’m looking back at old blog posts and old things I’ve written and just going like, Oh God, you know, I wrote that I thought that. And I’m learning other information that now I can’t unlearn and I also have to find a way of, of doing the work that I’m doing. And this is, I think the same thing that [inaudible] that you’re also doing from a fitness approach as well, is like we talked about earlier, how you, you know, being a bar instructor, I’m sure you know, it’s not like the methodology of movement is necessarily harmful, pure is foreign, but then there’s also a culture that goes along with that.

Steph
And it could be anything, right? It could be CrossFit, it could be yoga, it could be, you know, it’s the culture that Springs up around those things. And, and how you could use that movement practice for a sort of a held in every size and foreign perspective or an anti-diet approach. Or it could be fully, it can be like full-on diet culture, right? And it’s sort of baking that intentional choice. [inaudible] Mmm. So I really appreciate that you’re navigating that space as well. [inaudible].

Kim
well thank you. Yeah, I feel like I got, I kinda got off-topic. You went more like food leaning, but yeah, I mean it makes me really sad when people talk about like having to exercise

Kim
and like you don’t have to exercise. Like what do you want to do if it’s, you know, going on a walk? If it’s one to dance class, if it’s going to a bar class and stopping halfway through just to do child’s pose, the other half, you know, honoring your body that has different movement needs per day, they can look different and yeah, you might be tired and have to peel yourself off the couch to get there. And the hope is that you’re doing so with the intention to feel good emotionally and physically not to like burn off for pre-born or, um, because yeah, you should quote like, do that. You know, my, my ears always perk when I hear like, Oh yeah, I should do this. I’m like, Oh shit. All over yourself. If you’re saying I should do this, it’s not authentic to you. And so saying, okay, society maybe says that I should or my parents or dr whoever said that I should, but what do I want to do? And tuning in. And if you sort of get a blank slate the first time [inaudible] it comes with the practice of saying like, okay, what, what do I actually want to do? What would make me feel good community-wise? Mmm. [inaudible] you know, movements. What makes you feel connected to your body? What improves your mood? Not, you know, what would change your body? [inaudible]

Steph
what are some of the ways other than, you know, we talked about the sort of pre [inaudible] pre-burn and sort of, you know, I, I eat all this food on the holiday and now I need to burn it off. Kind of talk. What are, besides that languaging, what are some of the different things that people might notice if they came to do a class with you all in terms of how that experience might be different from a typical fitness studio or a gym?

Kim
Sure. So physically our studio is different and you know, we mentioned no mirrors, no scales, no like pictures of specific body types around our studio as motivation. Um, all of our instructors, uh, are required to write their current gender pronouns on aboard. And so that when clients walk in, they might feel more comfortable to share their own with the instructor and all of the bathrooms have a sign that says a weight neutral or excuse me, not weight control.

Kim
And so he’s saying that gender-neutral bathrooms are gender-neutral restrooms and then the shower is a gender-neutral shower. The bathrooms also have signs that say mirror zone. Again, because we have no mirrors in any of our movement studios, we want clients to know like, okay, you may see mirrors in the bathroom if you need to like do your hair makeup or something after class, like freshen up. But it’s small and they’re circular mirrors. And so we want to give clients that heads up. Mmm. Our instructors, again, they’re not going to be saying diet-related things and they’re also going to be intentionally doing accessible classes. They’re mandated to give at least two to three options for as many movements as possible. I say every movement and how realistic it is for me to be like controlling every class remains to be seen.

Kim
So like very extended amounts of movements. Um, for accessibility we have ballet bars for bar classes. So I always say like if your class has, you know, a downward dog, if it has, um, like a plank or a pushup, always give an option of just like doing a forward fold off the bar or doing that push up off the bar because it’s much less pressure on the wrists. And our instructors also only do about 25% of class because I need them to be like walking around doing hands-on assists, always ask me if someone even wants hands-on assists, always ask me my injuries or limitations. So, and everything that we do, we do so very intentionally, you know, down to the music that they’re playing. They are allowed to have like curse words, but they have to be, as with all things, the studio intentional.

Kim
So it can’t be like really offensive. I mean I sort of liked that speaks for itself. Um, what else? Yeah, we have a changing room that has curtains and if someone doesn’t feel comfortable changing the changing room, they can always use the shower. They can always use the bathrooms. All of our windows, interior and exterior are frosted. We’re in a commercial zone to be able to have like events and everything. So you know, finding our building is sometimes when you’re driving towards it like find the [inaudible] one that does not belong because we’re by like towing lots and stuff on. So it’s for aesthetics for one, it’s also for privacy. And then we wanted to make sure that if we didn’t have any mirrors, we also didn’t have reflections because it might be that someone is triggered by that. So we have a what kind of a no reflection, a full-body policy unless someone wants that.

Kim
We also have a body-positive stylist who is going to have a full-body mirror, but that is upon request. Um, and then we have like a few different options for services that I like to call beyond movement that isn’t just like the group fitness classes there. Mmm. Massage therapy. We have a yellow massage, which is a combination of, it’s by a different massage therapist, a combination of yoga, restorative yoga, and massage. Just really nice. I also do therapy and we’re going to have our dietician who leads intuitive eating courses and we have our body-positive stylist who’s gonna be doing hair and makeup and clothing styling for all bodies. So just a few different ways.

Steph
Wow. It’s amazing.

Kim
Thank you. That’s wonderful.

Steph
And I love how intentional what you’re doing is no, I, as you were talking, I just thought I wouldn’t have even thought of windows and the reflection off of a window and how that could be an issue.

Steph
And, and so I think that that’s, that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful that you’re creating that space and those options for people to come and explore all of the different things that you’re doing.

Kim
Well, thank you. I’m always taking feedback. So someone comes to the studio, someone takes the class as they’ve done, like always welcoming feedback and trying to work on pulling back on urgency. Of course, like that panic of, Oh my God, someone provided feedback. I have to change it right now. And if it’s something that I can and I feel like needs to be adjusted, like I will always do my best to integrate that feedback.

Steph
Love that. Will you let people know where can they find out more about coming to two classes, coming to work with you all and finding you on social media?

Kim
Uh, upcoming events. It’s kind of like first thing on the list.

Kim
So if people want to get involved, if they want to tour the studio, if they want to take some free, uh, classes, we’re going to have some community classes coming up. Um, I believe this is coming out. You had mentioned like Thanksgiving ish time for a preview party will have already passed. Um, hopefully people in town would already seen it. Um, and then, um, we’re going to also be doing a couple of events in early November. Uh, we’re going to be doing, um, an event with an ad agency for Austin design week that is kind of combating a weight stigma and fat phobia and providing psychoeducation by several specialists in the eating disorder field in Austin. That’s going to be November 5th, which is a Tuesday in the morning. We’re also going to be doing an event on the ninth for therapists and healers. Uh, and then on the 16th of November we have an event where partnering with Fabletics at the domain in Austin out for those that are here in the area and it’s going to be a Vinyasa flow class led by one of our instructors Stephie.

Kim
And then we’re also gonna be partnering with Bumble, I think towards the end of the month to be doing sort of like a friends giving accessible Friendsgiving typos deal. So like the in person connections can be done at our events. Uh, hopefully we’re going to be open very soon. Please. City of Austin. And then if folks wanna reach out on Instagram, my therapy and like public movement, Instagram is Kim G therapy and then R, uh, autonomy, movement. Instagram is just that act, autonomy, movement, all lowercase, all one word. You can find us on Facebook autonomy, movement and then our website is autonomy, movement.com if you need to reach out to us you can do so there. Um, if you are wanting to schedule a private you can and then we are in the midst of pre opening memberships at a really discounted rate so people can take a peek at our Instagram or at our website to get a better idea of what that looks like. So I think those are kind of hitting all the highlights.

Steph
Yeah, that’s fantastic. So lots of lots going on, lots of exciting things in person events, ways people can connect with you virtually and check out everything that you have to offer. This is super exciting.

Steph

Fingers crossed, yes. For city of Austin to get you all of your approvals that you can yet actually, you know, up in getting people in the door and this is just so fantastic, is such a great resource. I hope that in the fullness of time this will take off across the country and it’s so needed. And just such a really amazing and impactful and and necessary place in space. So I’m just so grateful that we had this chance to talk and connect.

Kim
Thank you so much for creating this space, for inviting me on, for taking the time to hop on the phone with me and then now extended time. I really appreciate it and I’m excited for all the amazing things you’re going to, to uh, yourself. And I can’t wait for you to come visit, come to our autonomy yourself.

Steph
I love that. I would love to come. Austin is a, an amazing city. I’ve been a few times before and I probably am overdue for a trip, so I had to take you on a five that, Oh my goodness. All right, Kim Gould from autonomy movement. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you.

Steph
All right, my friend. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of harder to kill radio with Kim Gould of autonomy movement. I hope that if you’re in the Austin, Texas area, you get, you took us down there and you check out everything that Kim is doing. And if you’re not in the Austin area, you can still keep tabs with autonomy, movement on social media or maybe, Hey, if you’re somebody who’s a fitness provider or you have the inkling that this is something you would like to do, that you’ve used this show to jumpstart your own inspiration, your own action taking and use it to help you make that change in the world that you want to see. You can get the show notes and full transcript for this episode over@stephgaudreau.com just look for this episode with Kim Gould from autonomy movement and you’ll find all of the relevant links and remember if you want to get in on the secret squirrel stuff that I’m doing to kick off the sort of pre black Friday, get over to core four club on Facebook. That’s all I can say about that right now. So core four club on Facebook, go request to join and fill out those questions and I will see you there. All right, until the next episode where I’m back with a solo show, I hope you have a wonderful and safe holiday. Thank you so much and we’ll talk soon. Be well

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Hi, I'm Steph!

Lord of the Rings nerd, cold brew drinker, and depending on who you ask, crazy cat lady. My mission is to help you fuel for more, not less: bigger muscles, strength, energy, and possibilities. We’ll do it with my signature blend of science, strategy…and a little bit of sass.

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