Harder To Kill Radio Taking A Good Look At Your Relationship With Food w/ Rachel Dash-Dougherty

Taking A Good Look At Your Relationship With Food w/ Rachel Dash-Dougherty – Harder to Kill Radio 257

Rachel Dash-Dougherty, better known as The Grounded Therapist, works with clients who struggle with disordered eating, perfectionism, and control when it comes to our food and our bodies. Today Rachel is here to address some of the myths and stigmas around mental health, help you understand where you are on the spectrum of how you relate to food and provide tips and guidelines to help you get a better foothold on life and your mental health.

Harder To Kill Radio Taking A Good Look At Your Relationship With Food w/ Rachel Dash-Dougherty

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Gaining Awareness & Peace

Whether you are working with a professional or trying to do this on your own, understanding how you interact with food and movement is the key to gaining awareness and peace. Instead of buying into diet culture, Rachel is here to help you work on your thoughts first, set boundaries and get a grip on your irrational thoughts.

Seeking help and changing the way you relate to food, diet, and movement is a brave thing, and with help of counselors like Rachel, you can tackle disordered eating, assert boundaries and look at your language around food to let go of perfectionism and control. Instead of beating yourself up, Rachel wants to help you be kind to yourself and shake those hilarious irrational thoughts out of your head for good.

Do you feel as though you display some of the indicators that your relationship with self-worth, body image, and food needs a second look? Share how you are working to be kinder to yourself in the comments below.

On Today’s Episode

  • Addressing the stigma of medication and the shame around getting help (9:35)
  • How to get yourself out of the self-generated pervasive perfectionism loop (15:00)
  • Tips for nudging yourself towards the edge when the fear is overwhelming (22:20)
  • Exploring disordered eating and how it relates to issues of control (34:10)
  • Learn how EMDR can help you process your stuck and irrational beliefs (42:25)

Resources Mentioned In This Show

The Grounded Therapist

Follow Rachel on Instagram

Leave Steph a Voice Message Here

Get the Made Strong + Core 4 Book Bundle Here

Nutritional Therapy Association Website

Quotes

“I put people back together so that they can go back out into the world and function.” (11:22)

“The gray, which is my zone, that is where therapy happens is in the gray. You cant trap yourself like that because the world is not that simple of either its this or its this when there is so much in between.” (19:12)

“You can think all day long, you can think horrible, violent scary thoughts. You can think wonderful rainbow unicorn fluffy thoughts, but none of them have any value or meaning unless you assign it to them.” (26:42)

“It’s not giving up, it’s taking out a layer of suffering when you are already in pain.” (32:28)

“That stuff is that person’s stuff, it is not your stuff. So if they are lost in their own disordered eating, if they are lost in their weight loss challenges or whatever is going on for them, that does not mean you have to take it on, you don’t have to believe the same thing other people believe.” (46:03)

“You will get there faster, you will be less exhausted, you will accomplish that goal and you will enjoy the fruits of all that work you did because you were kind to yourself that whole time.” (55:08)

The Core 4 is now available! Click here to get a free gift when you purchase.

Harder to Kill Radio is sponsored by the Nutritional Therapy Association. Registration is now open for the NTA’s Nutritional Therapy Practitioner Online Program. Learn more and save your seat (and don’t forget to mention my name on your application!)

man and woman cooking in the kitchen with veggies and chopping board

You can also try out their free 7-day course, Nutritional Therapy 101 by clicking here.

Taking A Good Look At Your Relationship With Food w/ Rachel Dash-Dougherty FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steph
Welcome to episode 257 of harder to kill radio today on the show. I’m welcoming Rachael dash Daugherty, the grounded therapist. She’s going to be digging into issues around disordered eating, perfectionism and control when it comes to food and our bodies. All right, let’s go. I’m Steph Gaudreau. I help women get stronger, know their worth and take up space without restrictive dieting or exercise as punishment. I’m here to share that you can approach nutrition, fitness, and mindset from a place of nourishment so you begin to trust yourself more deeply. Let’s talk about how to embrace your body and own your power. Now with over two and a half million downloads, this is harder to kill radio.

Steph
Hello, welcome back to harder to kill radio. Thanks so much for joining me this week for another expert guest interview. I’ve so pleased for this particular show to be welcoming Rachel dash Daugherty. She is better known as the grounded therapist and we connected first on Instagram for which I am very grateful. Rachel has such a wealth of information and knowledge and wisdom to share with us today. We are going to be tackling some pretty meaty issues that have to do with mental health. First of all, breaking down some of the myths and addressing some of the stigmas that have to do with seeking mental health help and then the main gist of what we’re going to be talking about today is really looking at struggles that people have with disordered eating tendencies toward perfectionism, where those things come from, how being in this world where you’re worrying about feeling worthless and disgusting about your body can affect the rest of your life and how you can start more importantly getting a foothold on some of this and start beginning to heal from these issues.

Steph
This is so very common with my community and I really wanted to bring Rachel on the show today to help you start to tease some of these interwoven threads apart so that you can start to feel better. Today’s show is brought to you by the core four embrace your body, own your power. This is my newest book and if I could think of a perfect companion to the conversation that Rachel and I are having today. It is this learn a four-pillar approach for beginning to nourish yourself inside and out without strict diet rules and without a side of guilt and shame that can come along with lots of other diet and exercise programs. Learn how to

Steph
address these things sustainably in your life from the point of view of caring for yourself, nurturing for yourself, and having compassion for yourself. To get a signed copy of the book, head over to Steph gaudreau.com and before we jump into today’s content, today’s show is brought to you by the nutritional therapy association, the NTA trains and certifies nutritional therapy practitioners like myself. I did the program in 2018 and it was one of the best things that I have ever done for myself professionally. In the realm of nutrition, the NTA emphasizes whole food, properly prepared nutrient dense frameworks as the key to restoring balance in the body. They’ve just launched a brand new online program for NTPs where students take an in depth look at things like function and dysfunction of body systems, food quality, health and wellness barriers, emotional wellbeing environment, the importance of sleep and movement and stress and you know we love all those topics here and how they affect the body.

Steph
As a student, you’ll be empowered with motivational interviewing techniques, clinical and practical skills and all the most up to date knowledge to become a highly recognized and respected nutrition and wellness professionals in your community. Registration is now open and seats are filling up quickly. You can learn more and save your seat by going to nutritional therapy.com and of course remember to mention my name on your application, what’s going on. Thank you so much for joining me today on this episode of the podcast. I am really pleased because I’m welcoming Rachel Dash Daugherty to the podcast. She is the grounded therapist and we are going to be talking about, Oh my gosh, so many important and common issues around mental health that so many folks in my community are dealing with. Hopefully, well, I don’t know if I want to say hopefully, but possibly even the listener here today, whoever’s tuning into this show.

Steph
And I hope that this podcast will bring some perspective and we’re going to tease apart some really kind of complex topics and issues that oftentimes come up with mental health, the mind body connection, how we see things like food and perfectionism and control. And gosh, this one’s going to be a really great one. So thank you so much for being on the show, Rachel. Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m a huge fan of yours, so I am like so excited to be here today. Well I appreciate you, um, you know, being part of really part of the community and it’s really interesting cause um, you know, sometimes when folks reach out I’m always like, I’m curious about what they do and we had a really awesome conversation back and forth and there’s just something about, I think, you know, we started leaving each other voice messaging.

Steph
Yes, that was great. And I’m not, you know, it’s not just the quality of somebody’s voice. Like if they have a good radio voice, quote-unquote, but there’s a warmth to your voice and your way of same things and sort of a grounded-ness and yeah, give a better term name is an intentional part of what I do. Yeah. Um, that really made me feel like this was, this was a great match and not to give it a sort of a speed dating kind of a, a vibe, but right. Sometimes, uh, folks will, we’ll offer to come on the show or I’ll reach out to people and it’s always important I think to me that there’s residents there. And so I felt that with you. So I just wanted to share that.

Rachel
Thank you so much. Yeah. I um, am happy to reach out to the people in your community cause I feel like our communities overlap a bit, even not, you know, literally in the world as we are across the country from each other. But you know, the work that we’re working on is very much related. And so I’m so happy to add, um, sort of the therapist’s take on some of the stuff that you’re running into in the people who you’re working with are, are experiencing.

Steph
Absolutely. And as I’m going, you know, deeper into trying to weave in things like intuitive eating to my nutritional therapy background and all of the things that, you know, I see coming up for people. It’s, man, I’ve sometimes I just feel like it would be so cut and dry to say, you know, here’s this, here’s this diet plan, eat this many calories and then you send people on their way. But as I’ve really continue to dive into this work and realize that what we’re dealing with, and maybe even when it comes to something like food right, can be, so there’s this incredible spectrum of how people relate to food, what food means in their life, the struggles that they’ve had with food or movement or whatever it is. That spectrum is so wide. And yeah, I feel like on one hand, a sort of on one side you have people who are really great at self-correcting.

Steph
There are things that there weren’t, you know, they’re working on things and they’re like, okay, I’m going to work on this for myself. And yes, that’s great. And then you have on the other side of that folks who really do need somebody and I don’t think that we do a good enough job as an industry welcoming people in. Who are those mental health professionals like yourself or suggesting that just like anything else, you know, Hey you might want to try going to the gym or this nutrition, uh, you know, whatever way of looking at nutrition might be interesting to you and saying, Hey, like therapy might be a great option. I feel like that that therapy option is, is so often, right.

Rachel
It really is. I see that a lot and I see that. Yeah. I think I run into, you know, people kind of like both walking away from me and like larger events like, Oh, I don’t want you analyzing me. Right? So people like kind of head the other way in a crowd, uh, out of fear, but also because it’s really sticky and messy sometimes and it’s hard to look at your own stuff. Yeah. It really hard. And it ran.

Steph
We were talking about one of the fears that people often have, which is once I start peeling back the onion, yes, I’m not going to be aim. It’s like once I opened Pandora’s box, I’m not going to be able to put it all back in the box or I’m not going to be able to stop peeling the layers and I’m good. This is going to be, I’m going to be doing this for my whole life. Um, I wonder if you can address, address that.

Rachel
Yeah, that and a bunch of, there’s a, I want to make sure we talk about a bunch of myths and some stigmas around mental health. And one of them really is that you’ll never, you’ll never stop coming for therapy. And that’s not true. And I think that comes out of like a sort of Freudian and like an analytical type of place, which we don’t do anymore. There’s no like silent therapists on the couch. Mostly we stay in the present because the thing that you’re coming in for is very, it’s happening to you right now. And so we need to address the thing that you’re bringing into my office and some of the past stuff might come up cause it might be related but also might not. And so we try to, all the therapists I work with anyway, we, we stay in the present moment.

Rachel
We’re not like going into childhood and parental stuff unless it really ties into the symptoms that you’re coming in with. Like you have that anxiety-like we’re going to talk about working on your thoughts first. And then once we kind of work on that and you’re, you’re out of the crisis or the more intense, you know, being, you know, woken up in the middle of the night by worries or actually not going to sleep or not eating, then we could peel back the layers some more if you want to. But it really just depends on the person. But I promise I discharge people all the time because I don’t, I want to see you forever. I want you to feel better and be able to heal and take care of yourself on your own without me. Right. The idea is I should run out of clients one day. I should put myself out of business.

Steph
Yeah. Obviously. You’re not going to be here forever

Rachel
Um, some of the other, the other issues I’ve run into are people are worried that they’re going to be selfish. Are you? Cause if you talk about yourself in my office, then you’re going to leave here and continue jogging about yourself all over. That is very much not the case. Right. We kind of, I like to think of it as like we open, right? You open that box but then we close it before you leave. Right. I put people back together so they can go back out into the world and function. Right. I work with teachers and students and moms and dads and athletes and all the nurses, all kinds of people. But they don’t leave here in a distressed state. Cause I would definitely be failing at my job. Um, and then they go back onto the lives and they’re, they’re healthier and better cause they have skills they vented and they feel better.

Rachel
So it’s not about becoming selfish. That was never a concern or something. I’ve run into. Some people think that coming to therapy and asking for help, it is something you should be ashamed of or it means that you’re weak again. Man, what a brave thing. If you pick up the phone and call me or you email me or however you reach out to me, I have to go to message me on Facebook. Um, that’s incredibly brave. Asking for help is such a hard thing. It’s so vulnerable and it’s very honorable. So there’s no, I don’t work with anyone who’s weak. I’ve never met a weak person in my office ever because they’re just trying to get better and get hope. And then one of the other things I want to address is like the fear about medication. Uh, so I can’t prescribe medication. I’m a licensed clinical social worker and sometimes the medication is called for.

Rachel
But a lot of people are against medication right now and that could be a whole other podcast episode, um, that I could come back and talk about. But it’s, it’s totally an option, but it’s not for everybody and it’s not something most therapists really offer. It’s a sort of secondary thing. We could send you to another prescriber if we think that’s something that’s important at that time, but it’s not you’re walking in and you’re going to leave here with a prescription pad, you know, or the whole bunch of paper that you have to go get your medication on. So those are sort of the big myths that I’ve been running into and I see swirling around the internet and that people, even when they call or reach out, they’re fearful of, we’ll make sure we talk about that.

Steph
Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, and I think that that will help set the tone of the rest of the conversation. But yeah, in terms of the shame, the shame and sort of like, I should be able to handle this myself. Um, you know, I feel like at least observing what I see in my community is lots of women. And when I say women, I mean people who identify as as female or a woman. Um, lots of women who feel, so like the, it sort of feels like everybody’s in a pressure cooker, right? Where it’s like there’s, there’s so much pressure whether it’s self-created or, you know, we’re, we’re proceeding that from the environment or the people that were around. And it’s like, there’s all this pressure, all this pressure, all this pressure. But then there’s also sort of this attitude at least I think in our culture, which is like, wears, you know, self fixers.

Steph
We should be able to fix everything on our own. And I think sometimes this community of, um, you know, with this sort of wellness space is a little bit bias toward that. And so in so far as, um, sometimes the sort of anti practitioner talk can be a little bit much. Sometimes the, like you said, um, the anti-medication talk can be a little bit scary for people who feel like that is their best option, right? They feel very alienated. And so we have this kind of like just kind of duality where sometimes it is sort of like we should really be able to fix things on our own. And then I feel like that’s kind of amplified where people are seeing the mess this messaging come from, you know, as sort of as women I guess. Cause I know you had you identify that way as well. Like what are some of the, how do we start unpacking this? Ah, this perfectionism that I feel like is so pervasive and that is building that pressure up and how do we start to even to start like peeling back those layers of, of where is this all coming from? And if it’s all self-generated, how do we, or most of it self-generated, how do we start getting ourselves out of this loop?

Rachel
Wow. Yeah. I love that. It’s such a meaty question. So I first, I liked the analogy of um, the metal conduit condition. So if you, you know, you go to a doctor and you were diagnosed with diabetes, would that doctor say to you, well good luck. Get over it. Stop being so weak they wouldn’t. That’d be terrible. That’d be terrible, doctor. Don’t go back to that doctor. But that is how we treat mental health problems, right? Oh, you’re anxious. Get over it. Oh, you’re depressed. We’ll just move. Right? Like you should be able to do this. You wouldn’t say that to somebody who has cancer or diabetes because they cannot be treated alone in a vacuum. Yes. Every person can make, you know, small changes. Like for diabetes, there might be some dietary components or exercise, but there also a lot of genetic and chemical things, right?

Rachel
You might need to take insulin or you know, to test your blood sugar, right? No one’s going to tell that person stop having cancer. You’re so weak, right? You are going to get treatment. People are going to welcome you. There’s going to be supported. There’s a, there’s a track and a path most of the time. And so I really like that analogy because I think it’s so clarifying about how mental health and mental health isn’t actually as sort of treatable in a straight-line trajectory is a lot of like medical conditions can be. So it’s actually even more nuanced and complicated and people don’t even know what’s happening. So you really need someone on the outside to reflect that back to, you know, I’ve, I’ve worked with a lot of clients who have been anxious since they were kids and they had no idea what was going on cause no one either hit it or no one was able to kind of tell what was going on.

Rachel
Um, or like they, Oh, they’re antisocial or that, you know, um, they don’t like doing sports or something. Right. It would be written off as that, but when really it’s a much, much bigger problem and so it needs to be addressed in a very different way with an outside helper. This is really hard to see it when you’re in it. Right when you were torn apart by worry and you are not sleeping and the stress is getting out of control or like around the case of perfectionism, right? You were so wracked with guilt and worry that you won’t put the thing out into the world that you need to, the presentation that you keep for your writing or the blog posts, you keep editing, you are locked in that loop and you definitely need somebody outside to kind of go, Hey, what’s going on? Like why isn’t this good enough?

Rachel
Right? Why isn’t this okay? It’s really sound to the world. So without that outside insight, you’re just going to stay, stay trapped in that loop.

Steph
Yeah, and I mean when it comes to, I mean, how do you even help people start to realize their own perfectionism? Because I feel like that’s sort of a recovering perfectionist. It’s easy. Sure. It’s easy. It’s so easy to look back and say, Oh, I see you know, what I was doing or where it was coming from. Or, you know, the fact that my perfectionism is not actually cause I derive joy from this, this pursuit that I’m, you know, this perfectionism pursuit, but much something different. How do you know, what are some of the hallmarks? Because I feel like when you’re in it, um, it’s easy or a common I should say for folks to just say, well, this is just how I am or I, Oh yeah, I’m a very all or nothing type of personality. So what are, what are the indications that the perfectionism is, or the, the way we’re operating is problematic?

Rachel
Yeah. Well, black or white thinking is really, I liked it. They’re called thought traps. So like the world is either black or white. Nope. Nope. We’ve got to be in the middle and the balance, the gray, which is my zone, right? That is where therapy happens in the gray. Right? You can’t trap yourself like that because the world is not that simple of either it’s this or it’s this and there’s so much in between. Um, when you find yourself kind of looping on the same theme? Like I, I, I’m trying to think of a good example, but like right in social media, if you’re like constantly editing your photo or you’re rewriting something over and over, whenever there’s that sort of repetition and a sphere of releasing something out into the world, that’s a really good indicator that you’re one anxious and two potentially heading into already kind of lost in a perfectionist type of trap.

Rachel
Um, like what would the, I like to think of it in grades too. Like I am a B plus kind of gal. I would love to get an a plus, but I am cool if the thing I’m putting out into the world and the thing I’m about to say or do, it was going to be a B plus and that’s how I can check myself around that perfectionist sort of mentality is you can keep going and over and over for an a right? You can lose sleep, you can lose weight and stuff. Hedy could be stressed out, but the people around you are going to be like comfortably casually putting out B plus stuff. And so if you’re, if you’re doing that, then I think you’re in a, in a good for a comfortable maybe average zone versus wrecking yourself with guilt. I feel like, you know, you might be starting to like, yeah, the analogy of like, you know, lashing yourself or like you’re not working hard enough. You’re not doing good enough. Those are kind of thoughts you might see coming at you. Renee Brown actually talks a lot about, right. She’s like a big recovering perfectionist. Um, she has a lot of good work on talking about letting go of being a perfectionist. [inaudible] yes. I feel like that’s a kind of like, I don’t need to plug her obviously, but she’s a really good example. Right. And she owns it a lot.

Steph
Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so, okay. I think that’s, that’s helpful for folks to have a framework of examining sort of, or looking at their own patterns of thinking and behavior and saying maybe this isn’t right. Let it go. Right. Exactly right. Helpful. But the alternative is very scary, right? And so, you know, why do we, why do we keep staying stuck in it if we can? So we have these like maybe a couple of different scenarios where we don’t really realize that we’re stuck in it and, or we don’t identify necessarily that these patterns or these ways of thinking are perfectionist in nature and not helping us. But then there’s this sort of the second layer where you start to realize that it is not helpful for you. It’s causing you more pain, anxiety, worry, et cetera. But you’re like the alternative. It’s way scarier. The unknown. Again, the unknown. That’s great. So being stuck on that as you’re sort of on the edge of that cliff and you’re like, why can stay here? Or I could just jump up and into this thing that’s really unknown to me and really scary. And so how do you, how do, how do you work with people to start sort of nudging themselves toward the edge when that unknown is really, really frightening?

Rachel
Yeah. So one of my all-time favorite skills, it’s called check the facts. And so we’ll look at, and sometimes I’ll throw it, I have a white board and I’ll write out your facts, your your thought. Right? So if I, well no let go. What is the outcome, right? What’s the, what’s the fear, right? So I’m going to be swelled into the abyss or my boss is going to hate me. My company will fall apart. Right? Like what, what is the worst-case scenario that when you make that leap and you let go, what’s going to happen and then we’re gonna rate it, what’s the likelihood? Right. I’m trying to think of like a really silly example that I’ve run into recently, but when you start to examine the catastrophe, a lot of times that catastrophe, I laugh at my clients all the time. You can ask any of them but you can’t.

Rachel
But cause there would be a HIPAA violation but if you could, you would find that we laugh a lot about our irrational thoughts together because they are so ridiculous when you shine some light on them and like write them out on my whiteboard. Right? Like they’re not going to happen. That fear is most likely when you rate it on a percentage scale, not gonna happen. And even if it is, maybe we end up on 50%, right? There’s a 50% chance that my worst-case scenario catastrophe is going to happen. Okay, can you survive that catastrophe, right? If I use myself as an example, right? So if I never get another client in co, you know, intake, phone call or referral, what’s going to happen? Well, I’ll run out of money eventually, right? But I still have clients right now, right? And I can kind of work myself through that on a week, that slow where I don’t get a lot of calls and I could work myself through it.

Rachel
Okay. Let’s call it 50% so if no one ever calls me again, there’s a 50% likely that I’ll have to shut my doors. Okay? Can I survive that? Well, what is my savings? What is my income? What skills do I have? Could I get another job? Yeah, totally. Right? There’s places to be employed in Connecticut where I live, I can get another job, right? So like my catastrophe probably won’t happen. Also, the phone’s gonna ring four seconds after I have a really stressed out thought like that for sure. So that’s comforting. Um, and then we can also, we’re not only rating the catastrophe, but we’ll check the facts. So like how many calls did I get last week? I got like five calls. So probably I’m going to get a call this week if not more than one. Right. Um, and if I keep looking at the evidence, you know, I have a successful practice.

Rachel
I’ve been open for two, three years now. So the likelihood is that for some mysterious reason, I’m never going to get a call again is really not true. Um, sometimes I like to call it like we put it on, we put your thoughts in front of Judge Judy because she doesn’t take any shit. Right? And she’s from Brooklyn, where I am from the right. And she wants to see your seats or she wants like the cold hard facts. And so she is who you need to bring into your minds. Like, I love you, judge Judy. If you’re out there listening, she’s not gonna mess around. So she’s not going to take like, well, but what if, you know, some clients out there bad mouthing me and you know, she’ll say, yeah, maybe, but most likely everyone’s going to know that that person, it’s not everyone’s a good fit and you’re an awesome therapist if someone’s going to call you tomorrow, right?

Rachel
So how’d that judge Judy in your head? You have to check the facts of what’s happening versus the irrational sort of worry thoughts that are trying to feel you into, you know, preparing for a disaster and then rating that catastrophe and seeing if that’s really what’s going to happen. And if you can survive the likelihood, right? If it’s a 10% chance, I think it’s worth the risk, right? Probably not going to happen if it’s at 10% out of a hundred so it can be really comforting to have your own little judge Judy show in your mind around your thoughts. If he could pull them, pull them out, all the more reason to come in and have someone help you kind of pull that apart. Because again, like when you’re lost in that, of course you can’t think of what to Judge Judy is going to say. It’s hard to get some of those facts and so it’s really good to have someone outside you to question, isn’t it really going to happen?

Rachel
Do you really think 50% is the rating? I bet it’s more like 30 [inaudible]. That’s why. Yeah. Yeah.

Steph
That’s very awesome. That’s very valuable. And I, I love the judge Judy. I mean, I can see her gifts right now of where she’s just like, yeah, she doesn’t take any shit and she doesn’t.

Rachel
Right. And you shouldn’t either. Your thoughts are just thoughts. They are powerless if you don’t assign any meaning to them like all day long. Right? Our brains are just full of thoughts. None of them have add. There’s no action, right? You can think all day long, you could think horrible, violent, scary thoughts. You could think wonderful rainbow, unicorn, fluffy thoughts, but none of them have any value or meaning unless you assign it to them and you look at it and go, Oh, like what does this say about me? Or like, Oh, what does this need? Right? Oh, I’m thinking these thoughts. That must mean something’s wrong with me. Or you know, you can go the other way. Like, I must be the most amazing genius of all time because I have these amazing thoughts all day. Right? You could go either way, but they don’t actually mean anything and you don’t have to act on any of them either. Were, are so much more powerful than we give ourselves credit for. We can think about our own thoughts and choose which ones actually are worth anything.

Steph
Well, and I think that’s the tough part, right? So I, and I kind of draw this, um, parallel with yoga because, or meditation I should say, because sometimes people are under the impression that meditation means I’m gonna [inaudible] try to clear my mind of all thoughts and like, if I have thoughts while I’m meditating, that means I’m failing at it. Which is a very perfectionist thought to have. But you know, I guess I see the parallel with what you’re saying, right? Is that, yeah, if we do have, yeah, we do have thoughts. They’re going to be coming all the time. I mean that is just like the human condition, right? Is that correct? That’s what minds are doing. Yeah. Always, always thinking, always processing like a computer really. And then what we, you know, so forth sort of saying and I think this puts a layer of pressure on people. They’re like, okay, I need to never think bad thoughts.

Rachel
Yeah. Oh man, good luck. Please call me and tell me that you have no bad thoughts. I would like to write a paper about you, whoever you want.

Rachel
But then that becomes an extra layer of feeling guilty or shameful.

Steph
Right. Is that, and this is I guess the sort of um, the criticism that people have with or you know, the sticking point that they have with like, it’s all love and light and it’s all wonderful and we should all only think positive, happy things. And how if we don’t, then if that expectation is there or that belief is there, then we end up judging ourselves based on,

Rachel
yeah. And that happened a lot around gratitude when meditation, gratitude came like big into our forefront during mindful, like our mindfulness craze the last like couple of five years or so. And I’m a big fan of mindfulness. I’m not and gratitude, but I think there was a big misperception. It’s still out there that like gratitude means I can only be happy and sunshine and rainbows. And I’ve actually done a few videos on this on my YouTube channel. That’s absolutely not true. You can be grateful for this shitty day. Like today in Connecticut, it is gross. It is cold, it’s rainy, it’s windy. I do not want to be outside. I wish I wear pajamas to my office today. I did not for some reason. Um, and that’s okay. I can be grateful for that cause I had to get my yard redone and now my new grass was growing.

Rachel
Right. I had some sinkholes in my lawn. They had to be full filled in and now the rain is going to make the new grass grow, which is going to keep my yard from sinking in on itself again. So I’m grateful I didn’t have to go out there at the sprinkler. Then I’m eternally grateful for the rain today. You know, even though it’s freezing cold, I can also be grateful for something that’s kind of yucky or like, right. I had a slow day the other day, I don’t know. And right. You could be grateful for the slowness. Actually like two Mondays ago that that panic thought I was just sharing about like no one’s ever going to call me again and my office is going to shut down is a real thought. I I have some times and so like last Monday I think I had like three clients, like a 9:00 AM a noon and like a two, which stinks because my whole day was sort of trapped in my office with nothing to do.

Rachel
And on Monday morning I said to myself like I can be really annoyed that my schedule is kind of weird and spread out. What am I going to do all day? Or I can say, Oh thank goodness because I have a ton of paperwork to do. I have emails to send and things to get back to and there’s tons of stuff I’m going to do with this time. I also might take a brief nap on my couch. I might do that. And so I had the, you know, instead of getting into that trap of not being grateful for this like a weird spread of time, I chose to be grateful and actually had a really good day and a really good nap. So you can turn that around and not get stuck in that if you choose to.

Steph
Yeah. Well I think right the sometimes people I feel like have a hard time with the gratitude piece because they’re like, if something negative or something challenging is happening to me and I trying to express gratitude for something else unrelated or I’m trying to see the way in which there’s something to learn from this and there could be a piece of gratitude in this really hard situation that I’m going through that it’s a way of accepting the fact that you like it in some, right. That saying like, I’m actually, I want to be here or this is, you know, so I feel like that’s kind of why people struggle with that at peace of like, you know, I’m having a day where everything is crashing down on me and I feel really horrible. So being grateful for it or being grateful for something today is almost like a betrayal.

Rachel
Yeah. I run into this too. These are so great that you bring that up right then. And also that acceptance. I think Rachel and also accepting your reality, right? That that means giving up or like ally excusing bad behavior, which is not the case. So when you accept you’re having a hard day and things are falling apart around you, one, everyone has those days. Every single person has a messy, messy thing behind their social media. Highlights feed and behind their smiley face is a really hard day and a night when you didn’t sleep and you know all kinds of stressors, but also accepting that reality just means you’re not adding suffering onto the pain of that experience.

Rachel
Right. It’s already hard enough. Whatever you’ve got going on is already hard and you add judgment or thinking you’re not doing it right or you know, I need to fight this. This comes up a lot with my chronic illness, like clients. It’s not giving up. It’s taking out a layer of suffering when you’re already in pain, right? Having a diagnosis like that is already awful and hard and sucks and isn’t fair, but if you start to say you’re doing it wrong or it’s your fault, or you know, whatever the case may be, you’re adding a layer of suffering that doesn’t need to be there. And so when you accept reality and stuff kind of fighting what’s going on, there’s so much more space for peace and calm and probably a solution, or at least you know, some a break. We’ll come with that.

Rachel
Taking that layer off. [inaudible]

Rachel
I love that. Yeah, I hear that a lot. Right? Acceptance means giving up. It does not, and also doesn’t mean that if someone is, you know, thinking about like domestic violence or like when people are in bad relationships, acceptance does not mean an excuse they had, but there’s no excuse for bad behavior. There’s no excuse for hurting people or anything violent or negative. There’s no excuse for that. It just, it helps you, the person who’s already in pain work within the reality that’s happening instead of adding that layer of suffering, right? Like I did this right, I deserve this. This is my fault. Thoughts like that, right? You don’t need to make yourself for worse. It’s already an awful situation. It does not excuse the other person but allows you to act from a place of, Oh, I can do something about this or like this is not acceptable. This is not acceptable behavior by the other person. I can do something about this. Right. I have some power here.

Steph
Absolutely. I think this will be really helpful for folks. I’m just saying it’s shifting directions a little bit. We had talked about this prior to the show and this is one of the things that I really was hoping we could dig into because this is really top of mind for a lot of people in my community, which is struggling with some kind of spectrum of disordered eating and how that relates to issues around control. Um, as I said, you know, doing a little bit more work with intuitive eating and certainly, you know, we have this spectrum of disordered eating which can include eating disorders as they would be, you know, diagnosed, um, according to a very specific set of criteria and require care from professionals other than people like myself. Right? So we have this sort of, but it can get really murky and there could be an, are people who have definitely have disordered eating behaviors or patterns who don’t necessarily fit the diagnosable set of criteria.

Steph
So I’m just sort of a, just all that aside, I would really love for you just to kind of take us on a bit of a journey here with that connection between that you see with people between disordered eating and control and, and how these things are woven together oftentimes because I think that they’re seen very often as separate or like the struggle with disordered eating is seen as a character flaw or there’s, there’s stuff that is there that it’s, you know, it’s just your fault. Like, you know, you were weak or you didn’t, you know, you were following bad advice and, and I would love for you to sort of paint that picture about how these things are intertwined.

Rachel
Yeah. Um, what I, I’ve been seeing getting a lot of referrals, um, people with disordered eating diagnoses or I, you know, I diagnosed them with that, um, or I’ve been sending them to inpatient and, and sending them back my way is, ah, the tie in with control. But also what I’ve been noticing is that it sounds actually more like an addiction. So if you insert alcohol, drugs, something like that into any of the thoughts that I’ve been hearing, it’s really the same stuff because the piece around control and that you need this and if you let go of control, you’re gonna gain all this weight and your life will kind of becomes all about eating and you might implode, for lack of a better word or explode. Um, [inaudible] it’s, it’s really, it’s just, it’s sad and it’s so hard. I just have so much empathy.

Rachel
It’s not about weakness, it’s just about how were the feeling of loss of power and around control. And just like we were talking about earlier about falling know, jumping off that cliff, right? The idea of letting go of being in control of what goes into your body and also, therefore, affects how your body reacts, right? If you’re not eating anything, you are sort of telling your body that you’re in charge, even though that’s not really how it works, but you’re trying to take control and it’s just, it’s just so hard and sad to be a part of that process. And I’m so happy to have all these clients coming into be able to support them. Um, but it, it really is about getting one. I think that, um, I really liked doing an exercise where you question where these messages are coming from because it’s so sneaky, right?

Rachel
The diet culture just gets into our regular language, right? This is a good thing. I ate good today. Oh, I ate bad today. I’m bad. I did this right. This is good, bad sort of judgy language that creeps in and becomes about morality, right? If I’m a good person, cause I ate quote-unquote good today. Ooh, that’s some heavy stuff that’s hard to, to pull yourself out of when you’re feeling like your character and your morals and your goodness overall are based on and you know, judging by what you ate or did not eat that day. And so just noticing where that comes from and that you’re using it. I send a lot of clients home with an assignment to think about what language they use around eating and like good, bad is the more obvious one, but it’s like sneaky. It gets, it’s like insidious.

Rachel
It really just gets into our actual like cultural language around food and when you can start to notice and build awareness of your thoughts and I have people write them down. It’s not like a dear diary. You know, I ate food today. It’s just three thoughts that you noticed that had good, bad anything around morality, language or should lots of sugar. That’s a classic thought trap. If you’re hearing that, I should’ve done this, I should have worked out harder. I shouldn’t have given in to eating when everyone else was right. Those are good indicators that you’re in an unhealthy space potentially around eating and your diet. And then it’s coming to terms with changing those thoughts, changing those actions. Um, I, you know, because I’m a therapist, I’m very biased, but I, if you were concerned around your disordered eating or you’re like kind of holding tight to controlling what putting into your mouth, I would encourage you to go talk to a therapist.

Rachel
I really, really would because potentially there are some bigger issues going on. Um, anxiety, right? Could be just a symptom of your longterm anxiety that has not been helped or treated in any way. It could just be out of control. It could be a response to something that has happened in your life. And so you get, you know, control back by controlling what you’re eating or X, you know, how much you exercise. Cause that is something. Um, sometimes when we feel out of control, it’s nice to be able to identify the things we are in control of. And that’s an exercise I do all the time. But it’s also a response potentially to something else that feels very out of control. And so it makes sense if people choose this. It was just a really, really unhealthy path that has so many unintended and they can sort of unforeseen consequences, unintentional consequences. And I just see so many young women that’s who’s coming into my office right now, you know, in their twenties just struggling to eat and let go of their control.

Steph
Hmm. What do you think are, or what have you seen, I guess are the some of the different things that the people you work with are struggling with the lack of control over? Do you know what I’m saying? Like w what is the, so the obviously the response is, is that we’re trying to control something in our life, like our food or our movement that we feel like it’s accessible to us. But what are some of the things that you’ve been noticing your folks are feeling they have no control over what may be triggering that?

Rachel
Uh, it comes from different sources. Uh, webinars. It’s like sort of earlier childhood or early teen years experiences where something like publicly happen, like you threw up in public or there was like a, yeah, like an ax, like a, an accident around the bathroom. We are like a teacher by a teacher who said, no, you’re not. I, it’s been a long time since I’ve been in school. But like, right, you weren’t allowed to leave the room without permission, but you really needed to go something like that. Sometimes it comes up. Um, it could be just overwhelming stress, right? If you’re in school and you just feel very crushed by the pressure of all the expectations that are on you. Or if you’re in a new job and there’s different expectations, you just got a promotion and right. You’re interestingly in charge of all these different things. And this is how it manifests is trying to get control back that way.

Rachel
But it can kind of, I’m like hesitant to point out anything too specific because it can be so many different things. Cause it’s, that’s the thing that’s so challenging about mental health is that it comes from a variety of factors. And so you might be genetically disposed to an anxiety disorder. It’s also environmental, right? And so there’s so many different components that go into that, that it doesn’t, just because you didn’t have, you know, a teacher not letting you go to the bathroom, you had an accident at school when you were, you know, in elementary school or middle school doesn’t mean that you don’t have an eating disorder. Right. By no means am I any of those things out. But those are some of the things that I have seen. But that’s why it’s going to be so hard to kind of pinpoint what’s going on and why it’s not always important to go into the past.

Rachel
Cause sometimes the, it doesn’t matter what happened to you or what caused this. Right. I have a lot of people that come in asking like, why, why do I do this? And I say it doesn’t really matter cause it’s happening. So what do we do now? All right, let’s address this now. How is this manifesting in your life, in the present? And so if it’s an eating disorder, we gotta kind of figure out how to change those things, change the thoughts, change your actions. And then I also use a specialized training called eye movement desensitization and reprocessing or E M D. R. um, and it’s a, it’s a very specialized training that I had to take, um, like to three day weekends. Plus I had to do sermon of hours of practice and supervision and a bunch of stuff. Um, but I ha through stimulating the left and right side of the brain, either through tapping or holding onto my buzzers or moving your eyeballs left and right across the plane of your nose.

Rachel
How we help process some of those stuck beliefs that really do fuel eating disorders. Um, some, some old irrational and healthy beliefs. And it’s sort of hard to explain. I wish you could see me moving my hands’ stuff right now in my office all alone. Um, but it helps process irrational. It’s are stuck belief that we, for whatever reason haven’t been able to process. So even if you can’t identify the exact experience, you can remember a time where you feel out of control and we’ll process that. You know, I was on a roller coaster. I was in a, you know, space. I couldn’t leave when I wanted to or you know, any number of things. But it’s not like if this then that the formula doesn’t work so easily, like a math equation, I wish it did so much easier. My job would be super easy.

Steph
Um, so regarding, I’ve related to a couple of the of the things that you said. So quite often we’ll have folks in the community who realize like they start to either work with the therapist or they realize they are in an unhealthy pattern of, you know, food controlling food or movement. And they’re either working through it with a professional or trying to do this, some of this on their own. And so they, they start running into the problem or the issue where the things that they’re questioning or the awareness that they’re building around there themselves in the way they’re interacting with food and movement is budding up against everything else they’re seeing in the world because of the pervasiveness of things like diet, culture, and even the really subtle ways in which it shows up. And so they’re like, they’re in this spot where they, they’re like, all right, I feel like things aren’t any need to work on this.

Steph
Um, but also I feel crazy because everybody else around me keeps reinforcing that the [inaudible] way of doing things is normal. And, you know, you get a group of women together and I’m talking about just kind of out the larger world and like the talk always goes to weight loss or unhappiness with bodies or we watch commercials. I don’t have cable, but you know, when I go to my mom’s house and I watch the commercials and I’m like, Oh my God, it’s everywhere. You know? So when we start, we start to step outside of that and then, but we’re constantly being bombarded with those messages from society. I mean, how do you help people work through that stuff without becoming a hermit?

Rachel
Yeah. Well, um, that’s the choice though, is it’s about boundaries, right? Which is, Oh, what am I favorite things to teach people is that’s not like a specific skill necessarily. It’s boundaries are not taking on other people’s stuff and I will always and forever channel this. Remember dirty dancing. I’m dating myself a little bit, but in the 80s, dirty dancing, Patrick Swayze, Jennifer Gray. Nope. That’s our last name. Um, they right. Yeah. Okay, good. Hey, um, cool. Look at my memory. So right there dancing and she’s practicing and she keeps stepping on her toes, his toes. Right. How dare you step on Patrick Swayze, his toes and they’re dancing and she just keeps stepping on his toes and he says to her so eloquently like, this is my dance days and this is your dance space. Right. Don’t cross it. That is the best analogy that everything got for boundaries, right. That stuff is that person’s stuff. It’s not your stuff. So if they’re lost in their own disordered eating of their lost in their weight loss challenges or whatever’s going on for them, that does noun me and you have to take it on.

Rachel
You don’t have to believe the same thing that other people believe. Right. Otherwise, we’d be really boring. We’d all be leaving the same thing. Right. I’d be like automatons, but you don’t have to take on other people’s stuff and you have to really question, is this my dance space? Is this my stuff or is this their stuff? Right. Are they like kind of spewing their own insecurities and distorted beliefs and just, yeah. Unhealthy things on me or should I just say, cool, I hear you, but that’s not for me. Right. Exploring where that line is, you know, step on Patrick Swayze, his toast. That’s very helpful. Yeah, and it’s hard. I say it, I say it like it’s super easy, but it is challenging. But really it’s about the awareness, right? Am I stepping on someone’s toes right now? Is this someone else’s responsibility? Is this someone else’s baggage that I’m running into?

Rachel
Right. If you’re at an airport, you might run smack versus a whole big pile of luggage. It doesn’t make it yours. [inaudible] it’s someone else’s. So leave it, leave it right there, and do not pick it up. Do not take it on. You don’t have to believe that you have to buy into it. You could just agree and to disagree and kind of move your separate ways. The have to take on other people’s sinks.

Steph
Yeah. And that was going to be sort of my followup question was that the, then the setting of the boundaries or the clarification with the boundaries for a lot of people is hard because yeah, they’ve been operating with and either a lack of boundaries or boundaries that weren’t quite defined or strong enough. And then when they start to assert those boundaries again, everybody else gets really, yeah.

Rachel
Yeah. No setting boundaries is tough cause you’re gonna run into other people’s stuff and they’re gonna say, no, you’re, you’re supposed to do what I’m doing, or let’s stay in this unhealthy thing forever. And you’re going, I don’t really, I don’t think so. I don’t, I don’t think this is mine. I’m not doing this anymore. Are there any hard for the people around you to change? For sure.

Steph
Yeah. Well, are there any things that you suggest that people might say? Like, for example, when they get into a mixed company and the TA, like let’s say they’re trying to work through their disordered eating or whatever the issue is, and they are running into a group of people that that’s, you know, the talk turns to that right away. Are there any things that you suggest people could say to start establishing or asserting those boundaries? Um, with, you know, sort of the things that you don’t want to take on? Um, because I feel like that’s the hardest part, right? People get into either mixed company, they’re not sure how people will react or, you know, they don’t want to rock the boat too much and yet it’s causing them a lot of anxiety or frustration or stress to be in that situation. Oh, that sounds hard. Yeah. So how did, how, what are some of the things that you’ve seen be helpful for people as they’re trying to navigate that space?

Rachel
I’m a big fan of using the word respect. So if someone’s sort of pressuring you or you’re feeling kind of uncomfortable, one, it’s potentially like, can you walk away? Right. Oh, Steph, I’m going to use you here. But by you talking about that mind the plate conversation you had, right? Where people are judging each other’s plates of like a table or something. We’re like, well, what are you eating? And it’s about finding your plate. So like, could you leave, right? Does that need an environment that you need to be in? Um, can you communicate that boundary? Clearly there’s a thing called interpersonal effectiveness and it’s about sort of taking the emotion out of your communication and expressing like, well, what I need right now is viewed as respect my needs, my wishes, what’s going on? And then fill in the blank, right? Like, so I need you to respect that this is what I’m doing and you don’t have to do it with me, but this is what I’m working on, right?

Rachel
I need you to respect my need to not be bothered when I’m doing this healthy thing. Or I need you to offer me the space to do this thing or act in this way or have these thoughts, but working the words need and respect into any sentence. And then you kind of fill in the blank for what your needs are. It can be really helpful. And just remembering that even, you know, just agreeing to disagree is okay. I think that’s a big part of what’s [inaudible] going on in the country or world at large right now with that. We can be okay with people not agreeing with us. Right? Like cool, you want to eat that, that’s fine. You want to smoke that cigarette like I guess but I’m going to be over here like not smelling your smoke or not eating your fried food or you know, getting a quick exercise, you know, 10 minutes hit workout in, right? Like it’s okay that we’re doing different things but it doesn’t mean you get to tell me that I have to do what you’re doing or vice versa. Right. That’s totally okay.

Steph
Absolutely. Okay. I think that’ll be helpful for people and I love that the way that you phrase that, you know, working that the words needed respect into what you’re saying. Cause I think feel like that makes it really clear because sometimes we get like really apologetic and like dance around sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And then the last thing you wanted to ask you, and there’s so much more we can talk about and I’m sure, well, Oh, I could go on and on lot do people feel like they’re trapped in a cycle of wanting to look a certain way and controlling the way their body looks or what goes into their body or how they’re moving their body

Steph
and setting goals that are so out of reach because of whatever reason, their resources, their chosen lifestyle, their demands on their time and energy. Um, their knowledge base, all of that. But then those things sort of lead to more guilt and shame about not being able to, you know, do the, do the thing you want or have the body look the way you want it to look. And this is my issue with when people hashtag body goals, I’m like, I don’t know, like let’s all be our own version of our best selves if that’s what we want for ourselves right now. Um, so how do you help people who feel like they are kind of trapped in that, that cycle of wanting that control but then [inaudible] they realize that it is so it’s not where they’re at right now and they feel really bad about that.

Rachel
Yeah. Uh, so one just empathy, just like send all of the empathy out into the world. Um, and yeah, I think it’s just about, it’s finding that middle ground. Remember we were talking earlier about like the black and white thinking trap and all the should I should look this way, I should eat this way. I should, I should. I should. Or what if those are two big clues, right? If I’m saying, what if I did this, what if this happens? What if this changes? What if that’s a worry thought or a thought trap most likely and he should or what-ifs or potentially just turn around danger zone, like go the other way. Uh, and so it’s questioning your own thoughts and then finding a wise middle ground, finding the middle path as I say. And, um, this thing called DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy that I’m trained in, right?

Rachel
We walk the middle path, right? What is the balanced area? How do you eat as healthy as you can? Like that 80, 20 rules, a really good way of finding that middle path, right? Like you can eat, you know, sort of in the healthiest way you can for 80% of the time and then 20% of the time there’s going to be an amazing chocolate snack at the thing you go to. And it’s okay to try it because amazing chocolate things should totally be tasted right? You don’t need to consume the entire thing that you could totally try abuse. So how do you find the middle ground? Um, sometimes having a buddy along the way, if they’re a healthy person can be great and just getting radically acceptance, right? That acceptance thing we talked about earlier too, is just how do you accept that’s who you are, right?

Rachel
When we go through like role changes, um, you know, like I, I became a mom a few years ago. Like I was just like turned my world upside down. Right? You’re like, what am I doing? What time is it? Where am I right? And kind of refining your equilibrium takes time. Do you have to be really compassionate with yourself and accept that you’re life, your world, your thoughts, your choices are going to be different at different stages in your life. And so if you’re trying to implement some changes, you have to be compassionate with yourself because no one is going to like criticize themselves to success or to that goal. I work a lot with people on accomplishing, you know, new goals that they have or you know, like just like gym memberships, like therapy. Like my phone is ringing on January 2nd like big time, right? Because new year, new start and it’s figuring out the goals but also making them more accomplishable. So you set yourself up for success and then also being patient tolerant, accepting and compassionate with yourself on the journey because you’re gonna mess up. Sorry. That’s where the perfectionist thing just falls apart is you are going to make mistakes, you’re going to be messy, but that doesn’t mean you should stop working towards that goal as long as it’s healthy. Right. Um, but it’s figuring out how you can find the middle balance,

Rachel
huh.

Rachel
And accept yourself and be compassionate along the way. And I, I hear myself saying that and I feel so cliche, but at the same time it’s so true. And it’s also just very nuanced, right? So like that sounds like a pillow. It could be a pillow question or like a little greeting card, but it’s, it’s, it comes from a very real place. Like I am very direct and very straight. Like I am from Brooklyn. Like I will tell it to you straight, but if you’re not compassionate, you’re not going to get there and you’re not gonna enjoy it when you get there either. So like let’s be kind [inaudible] you’ll get there faster, you will be less exhausted and you will accomplish that goal and you’ll get to enjoy the fruits of all that work you did because you were kind to yourself the whole time.

Steph
Gosh, this has been so this has been such a great conversation. I’m really glad that you were able to come on the show and share this stuff with us and I have so many other things that I want to ask you, but I need to be mindful of the time. So we’ll do that part two at some point. O

Rachel
h my gosh. Yeah. Can you tell me what other people want to know? I’d be happy to be out there. I mean I just, I hope people take away that like you are all beautiful, wonderful, awesome people and that right? Like the middle balance worlds absolutely can happen and the therapy really isn’t so scary. So you can come to my office, there’d be online and you can, I can virtually laugh in your face because our irrational thoughts are so hilarious most of the time. And we can just like kind of have some levity with that stuff

Rachel
and roll with it.

Steph
Absolutely. Let us know how people can get in touch with you.

Rachel
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at grounded therapist and my website is thegroundedtherapist.com, so you’d find me there.

Steph
Fantastic and we’ll link all of that stuff in the show notes. This has been wonderful. I really, really appreciate your time and your expertise and your perspective and I know this is going to be helpful for so many people. I’m so glad. I’m so honored and grateful for having been on here with you. Thank you. Yeah, have a great one. You too.

Steph
All right, my friend, that is a wrap on episode 257 with Rachel dash Daugherty, the grounded therapist. I hope that you loved this show as much as I did. I just find Rachel to be so comforting and calming whenever I hear her speak and grounded surprisingly or not. If you want to grab the show notes for this episode that includes a complete transcript, then head over to Steph gaudreau.com there. You’ll find more details about how you can follow Rachel, learn more about her and her work, and all of the other goodies that we talked about. Remember Steph gaudreau.com is your hub for all of that, all the back episodes for the show, and of course a place where you can go ahead and grab a signed copy of the core four and remember to hit subscribe on your podcast app. That means that every time a new show is available, it will automatically sync to your device. You don’t even have to think about it. Just open the app and the list and where you left off. All right, until the next show where I’m on the mic solo for fierce love Friday. You well, and I’ll talk to you soon.

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  1. Steph

    I’m a 63 year old woman who listens to all your podcasts. Want you to know that one a week is fine, even better. I subscribe to about ten podcasts and find that 30 minutes once a week is enough to allow me to digest the message and keep in touch with the podcaster. Love hearing you each week!

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